Curse

Vermilion Okeanos · Jul 21, 2005, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Here is a thought... (I won't be surprise if they nerf death nova or completely stop suiciding HP if this get too popular)

Death Minion Grenade Recipe:
Stay far and wait for the apporiate time
Have someone suicide for a dead body...
Use summon minions + death nova on each of them... restore life as necro casting
After obtaining enough amount of minion with death nova on each...
Set EoE
Send the minion in and taste of death them all.
Then maybe putrid explosion the left over...

HUGE SPIKE AOE POISON EOE... sounds nice huh? You can't even smite the suckers to death because they will death nova you to death.

Way better than those lousy bone fiend and bone horror.

Then again... How would you know you will be up against spirit team before you fight =P

Then again... It feel like I should have keep these to myself.

~Happy Cooking~

Executioner · Jul 21, 2005, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Yes spirit teams are really anoying, they can be defeated with the right setup and tactics, but what really annoy's me about spirits is the blocking, so many times ive done the relic maps and spotted the rangers spaming any old spirit to block the path ways to the relic, even block your ghost getting to the alter so he can cap it or block the entrance to the ranger team so that the 2 remaining teams fight first, worse still is some how a ranger can find a path through his own spirit spam when your chaseing him and you get blocked.

I say nurf the blocking properties of spirits, if you want to block do it with your own body, use some skill.

And if you encounter this kind of team in tombs, make a pact with another team and gank them

Alls fair in spirits and war !

Phades · Jul 21, 2005, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharalon

While an obvious solution, it would probably be a bad one at this stage. There's no chance of getting widespread rebalancing of enchantment removal, and without that, you're back with everyone stacking enchants left right and center. You'd probably have to wait for a new chapter for a change on that scale. I'm not exactly sure what the solution is. I can't undestand why it isn't elite for starters (especially when greater conflag is). Maybe they should just make it buggy again, so it's only got a random chance to remove a couple of enchants and hexes from each person. It was pretty well balanced back then

Easiest fix would be to rebalance the recast times on all the enchantments, even the sustained ones, making it so that the enchantment removal options have a chance to catch up. There needs to be no more unlimited possible duration with no recast times, no more 10s duration with a 2 second recast or similar situations, no more 60s duration and 20s recasting, even the 60s durations with a 60 second recasting could stand to get changed to the stance format where they are only available around 1/6th the time. That would cause choice and timing to be more critical. Some of the intended spell effects may need to become group or aoe based, but it would limit the stacking per person and recasting. Barring a change like that, things like shatter and rend would have to become 1-5 energy spells casting in less than a second, while recycling every 2 seconds or less, have warrior or ranger stances/preperations that remove an enchantment every hit or something similar along those line, because many monk enchantments seem to be about as easy to spam as some condition builds. I believe this was part of the reason why chillblains and other enchantment removal was inserted largely into the pve portion of the game to combat it.

Nature's renewal seems to be something more along the lines of a safety net, where if they made a mistake with the enchantments and hexes, then there is something for the players to fall back on. In reality, creating something along the lines of that skill, is almost an admission that something was designed wrong or hasnt been tuned correctly yet. I would liken this skill to a spell in lineage, where it would resurect an entire guild in one cast (unlimited targets/huge range). Creating skills and spells, is like having the realization for the need of it to exist, but realizing that you need to remove all hexes and enchantment and have them cast slower should be the first signs of a problem.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jul 21, 2005, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Now that I look at those spells you mentioned, this sounds like something a war heavy team was DESIGNED for...

Who can fight well without hexes/enchantments anywhere?
Who can negate all forms of arrow damage?
Who can resist heavy amounts of damage? [spirit spammers being weak offensively]

From what I can tell, you need to bring warriors that can send DoT ON TOP of dps through the sky. Bleeding + Poison with lots of thwacking and knockdowns on one shmuck from 4+ warriors.

I don't know, just my speculation. But Spirit Spam might also be fun to fight with minion heavy builds too. Minions running around with 500+ hp... LOL

OH THE HUMANITY!

That'd be great to cause systems to crash seeing nothing but minions and spirits covering your compass and display...

Let the cursing and swearing begin.

Vusak · Jul 21, 2005, 12:25 PM // 12:25

how about natures renewal is changed to:

removes all enchantments upon being layed down, slows the casting time of enchantments and hexes to 100% longer.

ie. the only change is to make it NOT remove hexes when it is being layed down.

this would leave it wide open for a necro/mesmer/water counter of some sort.

Disciple · Jul 21, 2005, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Excer

Just to point out that edge of extinction wont work, since its also a spirit...that is unless you start spamming it, but having someone just for that is a waste of a team slot

Please try it before you talk about it. My guild and I have successfully beaten spirit groups multiple times with just me bringing EoE.

Mitsu Bishi · Jul 21, 2005, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vusak

how about natures renewal is changed to:

removes all enchantments upon being layed down, slows the casting time of enchantments and hexes to 100% longer.

My suggestion is ... remove ONE enchantment and ONE hex from each player affected upon being layed down & slow the casting time of new ones.

Xellos · Jul 21, 2005, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Tombs lost all prestige the second Spirit Spam started into play. It was at least bearable with smite and air gank, because skill had something to do with it. Any half-decent spirit spam team can hold the halls for a couple hours until 2 decent groups get them.

stumpy · Jul 21, 2005, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vusak

how about natures renewal is changed to:
removes all enchantments upon being layed down, slows the casting time of enchantments and hexes to 100% longer.

ie. the only change is to make it NOT remove hexes when it is being layed down.

I have to say no to this ... it just doesn't seem logical becasue we currently don't have enough hex removal worth taking ... such as an equivilent to draw conditions. IMO ... best idea so far is to bump it to elite status so it cannot be paired up with oath shot.

Tigris Of Gaul · Jul 21, 2005, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disciple

8 Warriors: Okay, all we have to do is beat this Air Spike group, and then that spammer group is toast!

Charge!

-Two drop from Chain-

6 Warriors: We can still do it! Res them up!

-Your spell was prevented by a world enchantment-
-Orb/Strike one to death-

A few minutes later, the dead warrior team cries about how they never even got a chance to take out the spirit group.

Except for the fact that warrior heavy does not mean even close to eight warriors.

Darc.Syde · Jul 21, 2005, 05:56 PM // 17:56

I think oath shot needs to be looked at.

Phades · Jul 21, 2005, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Well it does seem strange that one job can choose to nearly completely ignore reset times, while all others have little to no sway over them.

Glasswalker · Jul 21, 2005, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Well it does seem strange that one job can choose to nearly completely ignore reset times, while all others have little to no sway over them.

Not true:
Flourish {E} All of your attack skills become recharged. You gain 1-6 Energy for each skill recharged by Flourish. That's Oath Shot + Energy gain and you don't even have to hit.

Here's another (although it's still Ranger):
Determined Shot If Determined Shot hits, you strike for +3-15 damage. If Determined Shot fails to hit, all your attack skills are recharged. This one isn't even Elite! I use that if someone blinds me or puts on a block/evade stance. I'm sure to miss! And I can use it every 10 seconds. Heck, you can even use it to recharge Oath Shot, but of course that's 2 slots down...

Phades · Jul 21, 2005, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Considering that nearly half or more of all warrior attack skills are adrenalin based that is not a very good comparison. I also stated little to no sway, hence you could also argue keystone signet, mantra of signets, mantra of recovery, ect also reset skills sooner. However, having total freedom to choose a skill that has an unconditional skill type and near instantaneous reset is in a leauge all of its own.

Scaphism · Jul 21, 2005, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Glasswalker, you missed his point.
Not only are those only two skills you've pointed out, they only work to recharge attack skills- they would have no impact on Spirits. In addition, Phades admitted other professions do have ways to bypass recharge times, but (to elaborate the point) rangers in particular have 3 of the most powerful ways to do so- Oath Shot, Quickening Zephyr, and Serpent's Quickness.
Oath Shot recharges every type of skill on your bar, essentially setting the recharge time on every skill to a maximum of 20. Personally I love using Oath Shot, but any skill with a powerful effect on Energy Costs, Recharge Times, or Casting Times needs to be regulated closely.

IMO, as long as Nature's Renewal remains unchanged Ranger-based strategies will remain a dominant in Tombs. I remember saying back in January that if enchantment removal was ever improved that Preparations (non-enchantment buffs) would get a lot more playing time. I had no concept of Nature's Renewal in particular, but it seems to me that we've arrived at that point.

lanilifar · Jul 22, 2005, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Considering that nearly half or more of all warrior attack skills are adrenalin based that is not a very good comparison. I also stated little to no sway, hence you could also argue keystone signet, mantra of signets, mantra of recovery, ect also reset skills sooner. However, having total freedom to choose a skill that has an unconditional skill type and near instantaneous reset is in a leauge all of its own.

Requires you to attack with a bow.
Requires 7 Expertise or 50% miss chance.
If you miss all your skills are blacked out for 10 seconds.
It has a 20 second recharge itself.
It is an Elite skill.

I call those conditions. You can argue that they are not strong enough, but to say "unconditional" is almost beyond exaggeration.

Mitsu Bishi · Jul 22, 2005, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Especially that "if you miss" condition can be played out very well. Make him miss the shot - blind him, evade, block, whatever comes to your mind. Look at the timing pattern of the spam, when will he shoot the Oath Shot? Retreat with most members some seconds before so his options on whom to shoot are limited. Use blocks and evades on those targets and try to blind him. There are ways to beat it, it's not easy though, but it is definitely manageable.

Albertt · Jul 22, 2005, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by lanilifar

Requires you to attack with a bow.
Requires 7 Expertise or 50% miss chance.
If you miss all your skills are blacked out for 10 seconds.
It has a 20 second recharge itself.
It is an Elite skill.

I call those conditions. You can argue that they are not strong enough, but to say "unconditional" is almost beyond exaggeration.

mmmmm u sure ?

-----------
visit: http://www.guildwarsthegame.tk

Glasswalker · Jul 22, 2005, 07:18 PM // 19:18

I actually posted this last night, but somehow it didn't go through. Most of this has been said by now, but here it is fwiw.

<old_news>
I don't think I missed his point, I just found it inaccurate. True, they are only attack rechargers, and I almost pointed that out myself, but it is still quite powerful. I missed Phades' admission, unless you mean "little to no" as meaning there is some.

Phades brings up a fine point about adrenaline skills, but Rangers do miss once in a while, and I as his victim can influence this. Add to it that this is an Elite skill, and I don't mind it so much. It isn't the one I carry, that's for sure. For my money, I like getting the energy return of Flourish ("nearly half or more" of Warrior skills are 5 energy or less, so this skill not only refreshes your attacks (every 10 seconds) it also pays their cost), and I can stack my own bar with skills that go with it. Very convenient.

</old_news>

Phades · Jul 22, 2005, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by lanilifar

Requires you to attack with a bow.
Requires 7 Expertise or 50% miss chance.
If you miss all your skills are blacked out for 10 seconds.
It has a 20 second recharge itself.
It is an Elite skill.

I call those conditions. You can argue that they are not strong enough, but to say "unconditional" is almost beyond exaggeration.

It is undonditional in what skills it refreshes. IE, unconditional skill type refresh. 7 skill requirement is laughable for a primary job requirement as a pre-requisite. Even below that mark it is not 100%. There are ways to reduce the charge time of the skill its self and there are plenty of skills that are far longer recharge times that are useful to have that skill reset.

Strange that you think its fine for a ranger eliete to refresh all skills, while a warrior eliete only refreshes attack skills, which commonly have 10s or less recharge, with a few attack skills more than that duration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

I actually posted this last night, but somehow it didn't go through. Most of this has been said by now, but here it is fwiw.

<old_news>
I don't think I missed his point, I just found it inaccurate. True, they are only attack rechargers, and I almost pointed that out myself, but it is still quite powerful. I missed Phades' admission, unless you mean "little to no" as meaning there is some.

Phades brings up a fine point about adrenaline skills, but Rangers do miss once in a while, and I as his victim can influence this. Add to it that this is an Elite skill, and I don't mind it so much. It isn't the one I carry, that's for sure. For my money, I like getting the energy return of Flourish ("nearly half or more" of Warrior skills are 5 energy or less, so this skill not only refreshes your attacks (every 10 seconds) it also pays their cost), and I can stack my own bar with skills that go with it. Very convenient.
</old_news>

Yeah flourish is nice for energy management, id say its more useful for management than it is for the actual refresh though. Then again, you dont have to worry about energy as much around an adrenaline based build. Very chicken and egg situation really, just which side do you want to attack on it is the question.